Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church and author of The Purpose Driven Life, talked in an interview originally posted at churchrelevence.com, where he talked about how Jesus calls us to "come and die." In another interview, he talked about this again and also about the Willow Creek Church "Reveal Study." In both interviews, he emphasized the importance of being a church that has "both a come and see and a come an die approach to life with Jesus" The following quotes of Mr. Warren, come from these videos.
"...the Purpose Driven Paradigm. I don't care what you call it, it's the Jesus model of discipleship." -Rick Warren
Rick insists...that his "purpose driven" way is the way Jesus did things. Accordingly, to do otherwise is not to be using Jesus. model. If you and your church are not using it... you are not doing church or discipleship of your members, the proper, healthy, "Jesus" way.
"We move people from "come and see" to" come and die." -Rick Warren
"What is the commitment level of come and see? Nothing. Just show up. Sit in the back, don't sing anything, don’t say anything, sacrifice anything- Jesus never left them there. From come and see he took them through consistent steps and all through the 3 1/2 years of ministry, he is turning up the heat and as they begin to follow him, he starts saying, now you’re my disciple if… and he re-defines the commitment. You’re my disciple if… you love one another. Right before the cross, he turns around to them and he says if you want to follow me, you’ve got to take up your cross deny yourself, and follow me. Now would you agree that there is a huge difference in commitment between come and see and come and die." -Rick Warren
" ... “Come and see” churches bring them in the front door and win a lot of people to Christ, but they don’t deepen them to deeper levels of maturity. The “Come and die” church doesn't reach anybody for Christ, and they've got their frozen chosen that they keep taking deeper and deeper and deeper. But those people have koinitis. They’re so close no one else can break into it. What a church has to do is see that “Come and see” and “Come and die” is the whole spectrum. And how do you get people from “Come and see” to “Come and die?” There are classes. There are covenants. There are commitments. There are cells. There’s coaching." -Rick Warren
And... where is that verse?
It's not to be found.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
The insinuation he makes is that, YOU don't-
...but he and Saddleback do.
Don't you want to be like him and do it right?
(The Jesus modeled way.)
"The very first words of Jesus that He says to His disciples are “Come and see.” Now that’s the entry point for faith. What is the commitment level of “Come and see?” Nothing. Just show up. Sit in the back. Don’t sing anything, say anything, sacrifice anything. Just show up. But Jesus never left them there. And from “Come and see,” He took them through consistent steps." -Rick Warren
Rick is not being true to the text where
Jesus says, "Come and see."
Besides, listening to Rick one would think
that a simple act of faith was not ever enough for following Jesus.
According to Rick, Jesus had all kinds of
tricks up his sleeve..."hoops" to put those disciples through
so they could prove their abilities and
commitment to him before they
could "really" be His disciples.
But what does the "come and see" text say?
(John 1:39-ish)
Look at the text.
Apparently, it was John the Baptist who pointed out
Jesus to those two disciples when he said,
Jesus says, "Come and see."
Besides, listening to Rick one would think
that a simple act of faith was not ever enough for following Jesus.
According to Rick, Jesus had all kinds of
tricks up his sleeve..."hoops" to put those disciples through
so they could prove their abilities and
commitment to him before they
could "really" be His disciples.
But what does the "come and see" text say?
(John 1:39-ish)
Look at the text.
Apparently, it was John the Baptist who pointed out
Jesus to those two disciples when he said,
"Behold, the Lamb of God!"
And look! Those same two who Jesus
spoke those words "Come and see" to
spoke those words "Come and see" to
were actually already "following" him, walking with him.
Jesus's invitation to "come and see"
was for them to continue with him.
Jesus's invitation to "come and see"
was for them to continue with him.
for these two, was already
made by the discipleship of one named John...
who pointed them to Jesus, even
told them about the Messiah,
the "Lamb of God who takes
made by the discipleship of one named John...
who pointed them to Jesus, even
told them about the Messiah,
the "Lamb of God who takes
away the sin of the world."
They were already following (literally) Jesus
when he turned and asked them a question and then
invited them to "come and see."
Jesus made no requirement of them, he simply said, "Come, and see."
Not much proof of any real committeemen there...
(Rick agrees.)
They were already following (literally) Jesus
when he turned and asked them a question and then
invited them to "come and see."
Jesus made no requirement of them, he simply said, "Come, and see."
Not much proof of any real committeemen there...
(Rick agrees.)
Yes, there is Rick's "Jesus"...always changing things up on
those disciples, making things harder and harder... making that fire
hotter and hotter... "turning up the heat"
so they can prove to Jesus what level of commitment they really have.
Is this the Jesus you know?
Does Jesus have a long list of steps you have to accomplish,
a list of all kinds of thing YOU HAVE TO DO...
classes to complete.... 101, 201, 301, 401
40 days of Community, Peace, Love...
covenants to sign and live out unfailingly,
commitments to church missions
and leadership, (your new "family")
cell group meetings and service projects,
coaching too?
"Spiritual maturity" according
to Rick, is not to be found anywhere...
to Rick, is not to be found anywhere...
in any way shape or form, without the help
of Saddleback (Rick) who has, under his direction,
conveniently come up with
conveniently come up with
everything you and your church now needs,
and they do more, know more,
than all the rest
of church throughout
history every had.
This man talks bad about all those "other :
churches , almost all the time!
Doe she have the wool pulled
over your eyes yet?
history every had.
This man talks bad about all those "other :
churches , almost all the time!
Doe she have the wool pulled
over your eyes yet?
" ... “Come and see” churches bring them in the front door and win a lot of people to Christ, but they don’t deepen them to deeper levels of maturity. The “Come and die” church doesn't reach anybody for Christ, and they've got their frozen chosen that they keep taking deeper and deeper and deeper. But those people have koinitis. They’re so close no one else can break into it. What a church has to do is see that “Come and see” and “Come and die” is the whole spectrum. And how do you get people from “Come and see” to “Come and die?” There are classes. There are covenants. There are commitments. There are cells. There’s coaching." -Rick Warren
The cross, the gospel...
what is it for?
Is Rick convincing to you?
Think again.
This word, "koinitis" isn't even a real word,
Rick, (AND OTHERS who use this word
specifically to "dis" other churches
besides their own), simply made that up!
It's a word play on "kiononia,"
the Greek word for Christian
fellowship between people.
what is it for?
Is Rick convincing to you?
Think again.
This word, "koinitis" isn't even a real word,
Rick, (AND OTHERS who use this word
specifically to "dis" other churches
besides their own), simply made that up!
It's a word play on "kiononia,"
the Greek word for Christian
fellowship between people.
Rick is partially right...
maturity is important.
Death to our bent ways, our will, our "self" must take place...
but this is not without an exchange
for new and eternal life.
Rick doesn't mention this.
Why?
but this is not without an exchange
for new and eternal life.
Rick doesn't mention this.
Why?
"Come and die?"
Something is not quite right.
Did Jesus come to give you an invitation to die?
(Frankly, you could do that quite easily without Jesus.)
Rick says that today we mistakenly think
of the cross as a symbol of hope...
Did Jesus come to give you an invitation to die?
(Frankly, you could do that quite easily without Jesus.)
But wait... there's more.
Rick says that today we mistakenly think
of the cross as a symbol of hope...
"Jesus said, 'You've got to deny yourself take up your cross, and follow me.' We don't understand the implications of that, because today, the cross is a symbol of hope. we wear it-- we wear it around our necks like it is a pretty symbol, but to wear a cross in those days would be the equivalent of wearing an electric chair around your neck today. The cross was not a symbol of hope, it's a symbol of torture; and what he is saying is, come and die."
Rick Warren being interviewed, here.
"Come and die?"
Does Rick infer here, that Christians are wrong about the cross and what it represents?
But we do understand...the gospel.
Which is exactly WHY the cross and what it stands for IS a symbol of hope.
It is our hope because of what Jesus said and who he was and what he did.
He died to save us from sin.. and raised from death proving he is God.
He gives the gift of eternal life...
even though we DIE.
"Come and die?"But we do understand...the gospel.
Which is exactly WHY the cross and what it stands for IS a symbol of hope.
It is our hope because of what Jesus said and who he was and what he did.
He died to save us from sin.. and raised from death proving he is God.
He gives the gift of eternal life...
even though we DIE.
A person will die in their sin and never see eternal life without Him.
And... where is that verse?
Can you find it?
You see, Jesus said a lot of things... like,
"If any man will come
after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross daily,
and follow me.
and
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
but whosoever will lose his life for my sake,
the same shall save it.
and
"Come unto me, all ye that labour
and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
but, "Come and die?"
It's not to be found.
That is Rick talking, not Jesus;
He is just making that up...
or perhaps he is quoting a man
named Dietrich Bonhoeffer
who wrote in his book, The Cost of Discipleship,
He is just making that up...
or perhaps he is quoting a man
named Dietrich Bonhoeffer
who wrote in his book, The Cost of Discipleship,
"When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die."
but it is not really the words of Jesus.
but it is not really the words of Jesus.
(John 10:27)
Jesus gave his life as a ransom.
Jesus voluntarily laid down his sinless life,
Jesus voluntarily laid down his sinless life,
and died...at the hands of sinful men,
and this in order to rise from death
and save those who would be saved.
and this in order to rise from death
and save those who would be saved.
The bible actually teaches that without believing
God... without faith in Jesus Christ
you will die... in your sin, but through Jesus
you can have the gift of God...
faith in God and eternal life through
what Jesus Christ has done.
"Come and die?"
God... without faith in Jesus Christ
you will die... in your sin, but through Jesus
you can have the gift of God...
faith in God and eternal life through
what Jesus Christ has done.
"Come and die?"
Is that some new bible version?
Why does Rick say that Jesus said to "Come and Die"?
Why does he not offer others "Life" in Jesus Christ?
Should not a Christian pastor even KNOW that
Jesus bids us to come unto him
Why does Rick say that Jesus said to "Come and Die"?
Why does he not offer others "Life" in Jesus Christ?
Should not a Christian pastor even KNOW that
Jesus bids us to come unto him
that we might have life,
...eternal life.
In following Jesus,
we learn of him, get to know him,
hear about and believe what he said and did.
Whe know who he is and what he did for us,
and then we can rest completely in him,
knowing that even when we die
we will be in Him
with Him and have eternal life
through Him,
and THIS for
the glory of God.
...eternal life.
In following Jesus,
we learn of him, get to know him,
hear about and believe what he said and did.
Whe know who he is and what he did for us,
and then we can rest completely in him,
knowing that even when we die
we will be in Him
with Him and have eternal life
through Him,
and THIS for
the glory of God.
Matthew 11:28-29
Come unto me, all ye that labour
and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
John Chapter 3: 14-16
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us,
even eternal life.
And this is the record, that God hath given
to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
and...
Is it your death (or His death... and resurrection)
that Jesus calls you to?
2 Corinthians 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Make no mistake: Jesus gives the gift of eternal life.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal,
The thief cometh not, but for to steal,
and to kill, and to destroy:
I am come that they might have life,
and that they might have it more abundantly.
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