If you are interested in this topic, please listen to the March 21 broadcast of Fighting for the Faith with Chris Roseborough and his Sermon Review, "God Wants to Talk With You" by Rick Warren.
On a scale of 1- 5 pretzels (to be awarded for extreme scripture twisting) Rick Warren maxes out at 5 pretzels!
If you are a Christian, and you believe what Rick is telling you.... think again. Read your Bible and listen to Jesus instead.
Monday, March 21, 2011
Wednesday, March 16, 2011
The Lord's Prayer- A Book For Children
"In praying the Lord's prayer together it will become a meaningful bedtime ritual a treasured memory and a lasting legacy that bears good fruit for generations to come."
Rick Warren is reaching out to children worldwide with his newest book sensation, this time his book is "for kids." It is called "The Lord's Prayer." Yes, he has published a book the little ones, and you can get a sneak peek of it on Amazon.... just click here. The book's description tells us readers, "Warren explains the meaning behind the words Jesus taught his disciples with line-by-line commentary, teaching young readers the value of prayer."
If anyone knows the Lord's Prayer... it should be Rick. It was, if you remember, Rick Warren who lead the American nation, the United States, in the recitation of this prayer at the inauguration of our 44th president, Barak Hussein Obama, back in 2008. Besides he is the leader of a church, "a pastor" and claims also to be a :christian." Yes, if anyone SHOULD know the Lord's Prayer, he would be one. There is however some redefinition of things that goes on as he teaches others about it.
Rick has been working on promoting the Lord's prayer in America. In addition to the kids book, Rick has been working on writing a book for adults based on the Lord's Prayer, called The Hope You Need. This book, intended to go public in 2010, has not been published yet, but he has taken the opportunity to still teach about the prayer in sermons at his church, Saddleback Community Church, in CA. Recently, on January 23, 2011, it was at his church, in a sermon titled, "The Prayer that Changes You," His listeners got a dose of Rick's "Lord's Prayer" teaching for adults, but more on that in a moment....
Rick Warren, Promo Video for The Lord's Prayer For Children Book, You Tube, 2011
Rick Warren is reaching out to children worldwide with his newest book sensation, this time his book is "for kids." It is called "The Lord's Prayer." Yes, he has published a book the little ones, and you can get a sneak peek of it on Amazon.... just click here. The book's description tells us readers, "Warren explains the meaning behind the words Jesus taught his disciples with line-by-line commentary, teaching young readers the value of prayer."
If anyone knows the Lord's Prayer... it should be Rick. It was, if you remember, Rick Warren who lead the American nation, the United States, in the recitation of this prayer at the inauguration of our 44th president, Barak Hussein Obama, back in 2008. Besides he is the leader of a church, "a pastor" and claims also to be a :christian." Yes, if anyone SHOULD know the Lord's Prayer, he would be one. There is however some redefinition of things that goes on as he teaches others about it.
Rick has been working on promoting the Lord's prayer in America. In addition to the kids book, Rick has been working on writing a book for adults based on the Lord's Prayer, called The Hope You Need. This book, intended to go public in 2010, has not been published yet, but he has taken the opportunity to still teach about the prayer in sermons at his church, Saddleback Community Church, in CA. Recently, on January 23, 2011, it was at his church, in a sermon titled, "The Prayer that Changes You," His listeners got a dose of Rick's "Lord's Prayer" teaching for adults, but more on that in a moment....
The kids book appears to be simply a timeless version of the prayer to present to children, a rendering of the timeless, King James Version, complete with pretty illustrations (and notably, a hearty introduction for parents guardians and teachers by "Pastor" Rick.) As you might guess, Rick highly recommends this book; he even made a video promotion for the book to help further it's use. (Watch this video...click here.) But note: he has made this book (the Lords Prayer for children).... in King James English, (something he routinely dismisses as "archaic.") Note too, that this book is not simply a book as presented upon the shelf; his book for kids also comes with a special on-line study guide so that parents and Sunday school teachers can know how to use this book.
Now, you have to wonder.... what parent or school teacher would not know how to open up the book and read it to and with their children? Are they not capable of enjoying the pretty pictures without some help? And you have to wonder, after hearing at his recent sermon at Saddleback "The Prayer that Changes You," (where he taught the adults that saying the Lords' Prayer, the way Christians have been taught, was wrong...) why, if he believes that to pray this prayer word for word ... is like praying in heathenish, vain repetition which the Bible warns about, does he so highly regard parents teaching the prayer to their children o that they can say it every day... in King James English, no less!?
And what does he teach adults?
Now, you have to wonder.... what parent or school teacher would not know how to open up the book and read it to and with their children? Are they not capable of enjoying the pretty pictures without some help? And you have to wonder, after hearing at his recent sermon at Saddleback "The Prayer that Changes You," (where he taught the adults that saying the Lords' Prayer, the way Christians have been taught, was wrong...) why, if he believes that to pray this prayer word for word ... is like praying in heathenish, vain repetition which the Bible warns about, does he so highly regard parents teaching the prayer to their children o that they can say it every day... in King James English, no less!?
And what does he teach adults?
In his Prayer That Changes You sermon, Pastor Rick had his congregation take a look at the scripture in writing, a look at the words in and around the Lord Jesus teaching his disciples this way to pray, and when they did, he had everyone in his audience circle the word "like" in the passage of Matthew 6:9, , where Jesus says, "pray like this."
Circle that word will ya, in your mind. LIKE
Then he made the suggestion that the prayer as Jesus taught, was only to be a model for our own prayer not a repeated prayer. He said that not to use it as a model for our own prayer, was "vain repetition," something the bible clearly warns against! Just the same, in (tricky-rick) Rick Warren double speak fashion, he publishes a book, The Lord's Prayer, (for children of the world) and encourages parents to teach their children this prayer.... even suggests they make it a bedtime ritual to do with their kids.
In the Prayer that Changes You sermon, Rick also made it a point to say that we people, are not supposed to pray that prayer verbatim, (word for word) but instead that we were actually supposed use the prayer as "a model" and pray "like" (reference you previously circled word) that prayer. Now he put himself in a position of authority, over parents and their kids, tell them to buy his verbatim book on the prayer and pray it, read it, every day ritualistically. You, if you are like me, might wonder... "Which is it supposed to be, Rick?" But his Prayer That Changes You sermon, wasn't really only about the Lord's Prayer; he also used the sermon to publicly defend his position regarding what he calls "meditation."
Circle that word will ya, in your mind. LIKE
Then he made the suggestion that the prayer as Jesus taught, was only to be a model for our own prayer not a repeated prayer. He said that not to use it as a model for our own prayer, was "vain repetition," something the bible clearly warns against! Just the same, in (tricky-rick) Rick Warren double speak fashion, he publishes a book, The Lord's Prayer, (for children of the world) and encourages parents to teach their children this prayer.... even suggests they make it a bedtime ritual to do with their kids.
In the Prayer that Changes You sermon, Rick also made it a point to say that we people, are not supposed to pray that prayer verbatim, (word for word) but instead that we were actually supposed use the prayer as "a model" and pray "like" (reference you previously circled word) that prayer. Now he put himself in a position of authority, over parents and their kids, tell them to buy his verbatim book on the prayer and pray it, read it, every day ritualistically. You, if you are like me, might wonder... "Which is it supposed to be, Rick?" But his Prayer That Changes You sermon, wasn't really only about the Lord's Prayer; he also used the sermon to publicly defend his position regarding what he calls "meditation."
And how does Rick Warren define meditation?
“But meditation is simply focused thinking—
a skill anyone can learn and use anywhere.”
pg. 90, Purpose Driven Life,( PDL)
Rick was defensive. Regarding the matter of meditation and the definition of the word, because apparently there are some people, (Rick called them, "confused Christians," ) who actually have the audacity to promote the idea that Rick is teaching what they call, transcendental, New Age, forms of "meditation," and Rick doesn't appreciate that, Rick wanted to clear the air. He,no doubt, wanted to ensure that everyone in his audiences knew that meditation was biblical, especially when these "confused people" make the claim that Rick promotes something that is not, something they consider as eastern religion types of meditation being promoted, by Rick, within what should be the Christian Church. Rick insisted at this sermon, just as he has written in his Purpose Driven Life book,(See the quote above,) that "meditation is biblical" and it just means "focusing on God. "
"The bible tells us to "pray all the time".
How is it possible to do this? One way is to use
"breath prayers" throughout the day,
as many Christians have done for centuries.
You choose a brief sentence or
a simple phrase that can be repeated
to Jesus in one breath:"
-Rick Warren PDL pg 89
His teaching on the Lord's prayer that day, began with him reiting a portion of the scriptures and then telling he people what it "really" was and how then, knowing this, and using it as a model, they REALLY should be praying. HE recited:
"Our Father.. who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name."
Then Rick said this is where you think about ,"how much God loves you."
Apparently, Rick reads that prayer a little differently than Christians through the ages have. I would like to ask Rick, if he thinnks they too, were ALL confused, and he finally has the word revealed on the meaning of this passage. You see, I say this because Christians throughout the centuries have not been confused when they have actually believed that this part of the prayer is where we address God for who he is in relation to us.... how great and holy God is and how he resides so far above man and his ways.This section of the scripture is not about God's love for me or for you. It is about his place... our place and God's Holiness.
Apparently, Rick reads that prayer a little differently than Christians through the ages have. I would like to ask Rick, if he thinnks they too, were ALL confused, and he finally has the word revealed on the meaning of this passage. You see, I say this because Christians throughout the centuries have not been confused when they have actually believed that this part of the prayer is where we address God for who he is in relation to us.... how great and holy God is and how he resides so far above man and his ways.This section of the scripture is not about God's love for me or for you. It is about his place... our place and God's Holiness.
.
Rick then said, very specifically, "not" to think about your sins, worries or problems.... just think of God and how "God is Love."
Rick is correct, God is love...
but is that what this part
of the Lord's prayer says?
No.
No.
Rick, that trusty change-agent that hs is,
is simply changing
right before your eyes.,
and mine,
what it means.
is simply changing
right before your eyes.,
and mine,
what it means.
Rick goes on to say in his sermon, about this particular part of the Lord's Prayer... that there are a lot of names for God in the Bible...
Which is also true....
God has revealed
himself time and time again.
God has revealed
himself time and time again.
There are many names by which God is known...
Provider, healer...deliverer,
our very present help in time of need,
to name ja few.
But one could ask,
"What does he mean exactly?"
Provider, healer...deliverer,
our very present help in time of need,
to name ja few.
But one could ask,
"What does he mean exactly?"
Rick explains that there are "so many names for God" that there is a name of God that is the antidote and answer for every negative human hang-up, hurt or.. emotion you can have-- things like worry, fear, impatience...
It is true...Elohim, El Sahddai, Jehovah, Jehova-M'Kaddesh, Jehovah Jirah, Jehovah Rophe, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Shalom, Adonai, Abir, Branch, Stone, El Roi, Theotes.... there are many "names" for God, but Rick never mentioned any of them. HE simply made a statement about it leaving one to wonder the whole point of saying this at all, if not to point to God who is all those things and then to him come in the flesh. there is after all a name above all other names, we are told.
It is true...Elohim, El Sahddai, Jehovah, Jehova-M'Kaddesh, Jehovah Jirah, Jehovah Rophe, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Shalom, Adonai, Abir, Branch, Stone, El Roi, Theotes.... there are many "names" for God, but Rick never mentioned any of them. HE simply made a statement about it leaving one to wonder the whole point of saying this at all, if not to point to God who is all those things and then to him come in the flesh. there is after all a name above all other names, we are told.
It makes you wonder if
he is here making
the inference that
he is here making
the inference that
some other religions are
just worshiping the "same God"
by another name.
by another name.
Also, since we are talking eastern thought
specifically on "meditation", here, it is the kind of thing
that makes you wonder if God according to Rick, is
specifically on "meditation", here, it is the kind of thing
that makes you wonder if God according to Rick, is
like the god of Buddhism where you
simply call on whatever God you need
by name, for whatever problem you have...
Rick Warren made comments to the crowd about how we, (And remember, he is speaking to "Christians" here... in his church,) we, "just do not know God enough." In fact, he says, "if we knew God" more, we would be more connected to God our Father.
Rick should be teaching that there is only one way to connect to God the father.... John 14:6. Instead, his message is that Christians just do not know God enough.
This is the kind of statement that makes you wonder how Christians connect to God at all. They will be more connected to God.... than they are now....of course.... only if they listen to Rick.
Rick should be teaching that there is only one way to connect to God the father.... John 14:6. Instead, his message is that Christians just do not know God enough.
This is the kind of statement that makes you wonder how Christians connect to God at all. They will be more connected to God.... than they are now....of course.... only if they listen to Rick.
Lo and behold, Rick is right again....
IF the people who called by God's
name "knew God"that more...
name "knew God"that more...
they would know this man,
Rick Warren,
was teaching nonsense that saves no one.
They would recognize that this
is not the voice of their shepherd...
not the voice of someone
who loves sinners in need of a savior
like God does. They might even notice that
Rick Warren,
was teaching nonsense that saves no one.
They would recognize that this
is not the voice of their shepherd...
not the voice of someone
who loves sinners in need of a savior
like God does. They might even notice that
Rick was simply drawing disciples
after himself.
after himself.
If people knew Jesus...
if they knew his voice at all,
they would know he was the exact
representation of the Father....
through which anyone could be
quite connected to God the father,
safe and secure where nothing can be
safe and secure where nothing can be
snatched from his hand.
These would be God's Children
and these would pray,
"Our Father, who art in heaven..."
not something made up to pray in it's place.
not something made up to pray in it's place.
They would know his name is holy,
and that it is he who has
given us one name
under heaven by which men
might be saved....
"Jesus Christ."But along comes Rick....
teaching that Jesus taught his disciples
the Lord’s Prayer,
but that Christians are doing
it wrong.
But then, didn't Warren make a display of himself as Christian,
the day he prayed the Lord's Prayer with the nation,
that most memorable day aon the White House Lawn?
Didn;t he also write the Lord's Prayer book for children....
and encourage parents to read it
teaching that Jesus taught his disciples
the Lord’s Prayer,
but that Christians are doing
it wrong.
But then, didn't Warren make a display of himself as Christian,
the day he prayed the Lord's Prayer with the nation,
that most memorable day aon the White House Lawn?
Didn;t he also write the Lord's Prayer book for children....
and encourage parents to read it
and teach it,
in KJV,
to their kids---
complete with his "expert" pastorial
commentary on it..
of course!
Rick further taught the congregation, "meditation is biblical."
He said that the bible "commands" meditation.
He said too, that when he talks about meditation, he means nothing more than "quiet time" in prayer with God.
But despite how simple "mediation" was just described by him to be, Rick seems to have this idea that prayer is really hard to do. He then went on teaching how prayer must have the four components (which he the proceeded to teach on) and how there are actually six steps to prayer, (things you NEED TO DO in your quiet time with God.) No, according to Rick, prayer is just not simple. It's a work, one that you must be expert at and do just as he instructs... because Rick knows, and teaches what he knnows... that praying to God is not as simple as the model Jesus taught his disciples to pray. You have to use it as a model for your own prayer... and then pray like Rick Tell you and learn all his steps and and components too.
After laying all these heavy burdens on people about praying to God in the right way, and teaching that we bring God's kingdom down to earth by prayer, he got to the next part and recited,
According to Rick, the "main" thing, is to learn to forgive yourself.
He said too, that when he talks about meditation, he means nothing more than "quiet time" in prayer with God.
"....Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
give us this day our daily bread"
But despite how simple "mediation" was just described by him to be, Rick seems to have this idea that prayer is really hard to do. He then went on teaching how prayer must have the four components (which he the proceeded to teach on) and how there are actually six steps to prayer, (things you NEED TO DO in your quiet time with God.) No, according to Rick, prayer is just not simple. It's a work, one that you must be expert at and do just as he instructs... because Rick knows, and teaches what he knnows... that praying to God is not as simple as the model Jesus taught his disciples to pray. You have to use it as a model for your own prayer... and then pray like Rick Tell you and learn all his steps and and components too.
"and forgive us our debts as we forgive
our debtors, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil...." According to Rick, the "main" thing, is to learn to forgive yourself.
Funny... the Lord's Prayer... here... is about asking God for forgiveness and forgiving others, but there is nothing about forgiving one's self mentioned in there.
But back to the book for kids...
But back to the book for kids...
The book description tells us readers how in this book, "Warren explains the meaning behind the words Jesus taught his disciples with line-by-line commentary, teaching young readers the value of prayer." He explains the meaning to kids, with an online curriculum for the Lord's Prayer for Children by Rick Warren. What does Rick teach in it?.
"In the Lord's Prayer, we are asking God
to make the earth as amazing as heaven,
the place where he rules and he is always present."
page 11
Is this what the Lords Prayer is about?
Are we asking God to make this earth
Are we asking God to make this earth
as amazing as heaven?
NO.
We are asking for his will, not our own to
be done.
NO.
We are asking for his will, not our own to
be done.
"Wouldn't it be great if all the treasures in heaven
were on earth? The lord's prayer says that we can
pray for God's rule, authority, and presence to come to earth. "
Page 13
"(Jesus) said that if we knew how
valuable heaven was, we would want to
give up everything for it."
page 13
"Having just been told about
praying for heaven to come to earth,
now being told how "valuable" heaven is,
you get the idea that heaven on
earth is a possibility IF....
if you are willing to give up everything for it.
Funny how, according to Rick,
we are to want heaven on earth.
Funny too is this idea presented that
we can have "heaven" on earth if we just
give up everything for it.
What could this man mean by this?
But it is not just through the words,,,, but also through the illustrations in the book, that children are supposed to be taught. What do they learn the various parts of the prayer mean and represent through these pictures? The curriculum explains:
"Our Father who art in heaven "...the picture represents how "God provides parents and other adults to help you"
Nice. Parents and teachers are helpers,
but is that what this scripture is about? No.
And, who helped the
Israelites escape Egypt
and who parted
the Red Sea?
but is that what this scripture is about? No.
And, who helped the
Israelites escape Egypt
and who parted
the Red Sea?
Hint: It wasn't teachers and parents...
and it wasn't Moses either.
and it wasn't Moses either.
"Give us this day our daily bread." .... "God provides a world for children to live and grow in"
Nice thoughts here too.
the verse is But once again,
so much more than:
the verse is But once again,
so much more than:
"God provides a world
for children to live and grow in."
for children to live and grow in."
The niceness continues, but
it is not true to the written word on the page.
it is not true to the written word on the page.
The will of God being done on the earth
is not that people
is not that people
would be creative in making
"the world a better
and more beautiful place."
Obedience...doing things that are right and good and true....
repenting of doing wrong... even
Faith in the one whom God sent to save us....
all come to mind, but instead we hear something about
our own human abilities to "make the world a better
and more beautiful place"
Obedience...doing things that are right and good and true....
repenting of doing wrong... even
Faith in the one whom God sent to save us....
all come to mind, but instead we hear something about
our own human abilities to "make the world a better
and more beautiful place"
That sounds more like
someone's fanciful
political agenda.
someone's fanciful
political agenda.
Pg 20,21
Regarding, "As it is in haven."
This is about animals?
Wow.
Is it really about animals?
Answer: no.
Wow.
Is it really about animals?
Answer: no.
Yes, now thanks to Warren's new book, all those kids under the tutelage of teachers in Sunday school or in their homes with doting parents, wanting to train up their children in the way that they should go, can have Rick Warrens help. He, and his friends, can teach them all about the concept of bringing heaven to earth, without Jesus of the Bible being the only way to God, the only name under heaven by which men might be saved and receive not just life for this world, but eternal life. They can make the world, their world, a better and more beautiful place, by being creative and by being willing to listen to Rick Warren, and be willing to take his advice and give up everything, for it.
Thanks to Rick, and to the children-loving parents and well-intentioned Sunday school teachers he has convinced to listen to him, who buy and use this book, (who have no idea that Rick changes what the Bible does say, and what words actually mean, the way Rick does, ) kids everywhere will be vulnerable, to his false teaching of what the Bible "says."They will have a new and changed perspective on the very prayer that Jesus himself taught his disciples, God's own children, to pray...
the prayer Christians call the Lord's Prayer.
Saturday, March 12, 2011
Rick Warren on Fundamentalism
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
".... about a hundred years ago, Christianity split into two wings in the Protestant division and this hasn't been happening with Catholicism, but it did happen in Protestantism." ~ Rick Warren
"There is a fellow named Walter Rauschenbusch, who is the man who came up with the term "social gospel." Rauschenbusch was a liberal theologian and he basically said we don't need this stuff about Jesus anymore; we don't need the cross; we don't need salvation; we don't need atonement; we just need to redeem the social structures of society and if we do that people will automatically get better. This is basically Marxism in a Christian form. " ~ Rick Warren
"And there were even magazines like The Christian Century, (Might he mean the Christian Oracle?)which was a pretty audacious title when it started at the beginning of the 20th century - as if to say, this is going to be the Christian century; we are going to bring in the millennium simply by changing the social structures of society. Well, nobody believes that anymore after two world wars and a bunch of other stuff." ~ Rick Warren
But what happened is Protestantism split into two wings, the fundamentalists and the mainline churches. And the mainline churches tended to take the social action issues of Christianity - caring for the sick, for the poor, the dispossessed, racial justice and things like that. Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America."
Christian ones?
"Anyway, the fundamentalist and evangelical movement said they were just going to care about personal salvation when they split from the mainline churches. What happened is the mainline churches cared about the social morality and the evangelicals cared about personal morality. That's what happened when they split. But they really are all part of the total gospel - social justice, personal morality and salvation. And today a lot more people, evangelicals, are caring about those issues." ~Rick Warren
One year (2005) he says he is not a fundamentalist.
(they are just too radical,
too extreme in their beliefs.)
" MR WARREN: How do you explain a book by a pastor selling now over 25 million copies? And that's in English. The book has sold over 30 million copies worldwide. And I'm not even a writer.I tell you, there's nothing in the book that's new - not a single thing in the book that's new, that's not in historic Christianity over the last 2,000 years. I just happened to say it in a simple way
ELSA WALSH, THE NEW YORKER: So are you saying doctrine won't be important or is not important if you bring together all these -
MR. WARREN: No, no. I think, though, it's what Augustine said: "In the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity." And I think that's how evangelicals and Catholics can get together. And I don't know if you know this or not, but fundamentalists and Pentecostals don't like each other, okay? They don't. But they could get together. "In the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
JUAN WILLIAMS, NPR: Picking up on this business about the disagreements between the fundamentalists and the Pentecostals, I mean, this struck me as news because when journalists write about it, we go to people like Robertson and Falwell to represent the evangelicals. And that's the way it comes across, so it strikes me that we're ill informed or you're wrong. (Chuckles.) And secondly, that you're not using this God-given influence you spoke of, because your influence is not showing up in the American media in terms of supplanting people who you would tell us are bogus.
MR. WARREN: Well, I tell you, that's the reason I accepted this meeting, because I'm just tired of having other people represent me and represent the hundreds of thousands of churches where the pastors I've trained would nowhere, no way, relate to some of the supposed spokesmen of a previous generation.... Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. ~Rick Warren
MR. WILLIAMS: Bob Jones is not a mega-church?
MR. WARREN: No, no, no, no, no, no no. Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, and that group is shrinking more and more and more. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing.
MR. WILLIAMS: What's the difference between a fundamentalist and a Pentecostal?
MR. WARREN: A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today. They would - for instance, one of the hallmarks of a Pentecostal would be praying for miracles of healing and speaking in an unknown tongue and things like that. Those would be hallmarks of Pentecostalism and fundamentalists would say, "Oh no, all that stuff died at the end of the New Testament." They would not accept the miraculous today.
MR. WARREN: Well, I don't agree with that. I believe there are miracles today.
MR. CROMARTIE: Let me give you a quick answer to that. The difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist is an evangelical is someone who really, really, really likes Billy Graham. A fundamentalist is someone who thinks Billy Graham is a liberal.
MR. WARREN: That would be true. A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics. You know - even evangelicals. It's interesting - maybe 15-20 years ago, Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention - which is as wide - I mean you can find anything in that."
"MR. GOLDBERG:....The question is, do you think your followers - or the people who come to church, the people who read your books, the people you are talking to all over the world - are sophisticated enough to hold this contradiction in their minds and to see Jewish people as not just Jews, but let's divide the world between the saved and the unsaved. Do you think that they are sophisticated enough -
MR. WARREN: I do. Absolutely, without a doubt because the fundamental issue of Christianity is this: the purpose-driven life is built on two verses of scripture, both by Jesus. One is called the Great Commission, and the other is called the Great Commandment."
"And so I think fundamentally Christianity and Judaism both teach that it's all about love. It's all about loving God and loving your neighbor. That's why I was serious when I was saying you're my cousin; I obviously have far more in common with someone who is Jewish than I do with someone who is a secularist - far more in common because we worship the same God; it is Adonai, it is Jehovah. We worship the same God. We are cousins in the faith.
Now the ridiculous thing is this myth that all religions are not mutually exclusive. If you've studied them - anybody who has studied the world religions knows they cannot all be right because they totally contradict each other. Anybody who says they don't has never studied the world religions. They are mutually exclusive, and that's why I come back to my earlier statement that I'm going to bet my life on one of them because I cannot bet my life on all of them. And I think the stupid thing is not to make a bet." ~Rick Warren
~Rick Warren
Really? That reasoning seems pretty simplistic. It it the kind of reasoning that puts the three major religions in the world on the same common denominator, when they are each distinctive on their own. In fact, if you were to take a look into it and study it, you might see that religious fundamentalism is motivated by a lot of things, not just "fear."
But what is "fundamentalism" anyhow?
But what is "fundamentalism" anyhow?
Wordnet.princeton says: "the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth"
Wiktionary says, "The tendency to reduce a religion to its most fundamental tenets, based on strict interpretation of core texts;"
Christian "fundamentalism" then, would be a religious view that stresses the infallibility of the Bible's words and message, not only in matters of faith, morals and in the practice of that faith, but also as a historical record of the Jews, the early church, and the life and death of Jesus Christ. It would also be one that takes what the Bible teaches into understanding on topics like the creation of the Earth, animals and all that is in it, not to mention the stars and heavens above, and even the origin is things like angels and humans. Fundamentals of the Christian faith would include, but not be limited to, a belief in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, (the Messiah who was to come to the Jews,) his teachings, his life, death and the part about his physical resurrection too, which was claimed by those first Christians who wrote the New Testament scriptures, to be God's blood atonement made sacrificially by him in our place for sin. Add to this the believe that Christ will come again... his Second Coming and you understand what it is that Christians FUNDAMENTALLY believed 2000 years ago, as well as today.
Warren expressed a lot of his views about "fundamentalism" at a conference in Florida in 2005. Here are excepts of his conversations from a transcript highlighting his opinions on the subject. You can read the transcript in it's entirety, here.
Note:Underlined parts and emboldened sections are done for emphasis (by me) Underlined parts are parts to be noted in general and the boldened black font parts are what Warren specifically says about "fundamentalism."
".... about a hundred years ago, Christianity split into two wings in the Protestant division and this hasn't been happening with Catholicism, but it did happen in Protestantism." ~ Rick Warren
Since when has there not been divisions in Catholicism?
"There is a fellow named Walter Rauschenbusch, who is the man who came up with the term "social gospel." Rauschenbusch was a liberal theologian and he basically said we don't need this stuff about Jesus anymore; we don't need the cross; we don't need salvation; we don't need atonement; we just need to redeem the social structures of society and if we do that people will automatically get better. This is basically Marxism in a Christian form. " ~ Rick Warren
So here, Rick makes mention of Rauschenbusch....
the one who taught, what Warren calls,
Marxism in Christian form.
But really, do we know of anyone else working
to redeem "the social structures of society," Someone like.... (Rick Warren.)
You know, someone who is hoping to
get everyone on his own bandwagon and
work together to eradicate his list of terrible evils
of our world,(Rick's P.E.A.C.E. Plan) eliminate, things like "unhealthy"
pastors and those other social ills...
poverty, disease and illiteracy.
Interesting isn't it, how Warren made it a point to identify this man,
Walter Rauschenbusch and tell us how he taught a social gospel...
,,,what Warren calls, "Marxism in a Christian form," This is an interesting introduction to a man named Raushenbausch and what he taught... by a man who does the same thing.
It;s a case of the "pot calling the kettle black,"
,,,what Warren calls, "Marxism in a Christian form," This is an interesting introduction to a man named Raushenbausch and what he taught... by a man who does the same thing.
It;s a case of the "pot calling the kettle black,"
"And there were even magazines like The Christian Century, (Might he mean the Christian Oracle?)which was a pretty audacious title when it started at the beginning of the 20th century - as if to say, this is going to be the Christian century; we are going to bring in the millennium simply by changing the social structures of society. Well, nobody believes that anymore after two world wars and a bunch of other stuff." ~ Rick Warren
But what happened is Protestantism split into two wings, the fundamentalists and the mainline churches. And the mainline churches tended to take the social action issues of Christianity - caring for the sick, for the poor, the dispossessed, racial justice and things like that. Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America."
Christian ones?
"Anyway, the fundamentalist and evangelical movement said they were just going to care about personal salvation when they split from the mainline churches. What happened is the mainline churches cared about the social morality and the evangelicals cared about personal morality. That's what happened when they split. But they really are all part of the total gospel - social justice, personal morality and salvation. And today a lot more people, evangelicals, are caring about those issues." ~Rick Warren
The Myth of the Modern Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
The "total gospel?"
Social justice, personal morality and "salvation," mind you,
are not exclusive to the Christian faith.
These are pertinent to every religion.
That is exclusive to Christianity is "the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
and it is the same thing John the Baptist preached
about the man from Nazareth, born in
Bethlehem, named Jesus.
"Behold, the Lamb of God!"
The "total" gospel is all inclusive of this statement by John
and it would include what the apostles believed
and wrote and publicly proclaimed after Jesus'
Resurrection from death.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
you and your household,
and you will be saved."
The "total gospel?"
Social justice, personal morality and "salvation," mind you,
are not exclusive to the Christian faith.
These are pertinent to every religion.
That is exclusive to Christianity is "the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
and it is the same thing John the Baptist preached
about the man from Nazareth, born in
Bethlehem, named Jesus.
"Behold, the Lamb of God!"
The "total" gospel is all inclusive of this statement by John
and it would include what the apostles believed
and wrote and publicly proclaimed after Jesus'
Resurrection from death.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
you and your household,
and you will be saved."
"....we need to help journalists use the right terms. There is a difference between "evangelicalism" and "fundamentalism" and "the religious right." And people use them like they are synonyms. They are not - they are very, very different. I am an evangelical. I'm not a member of the religious right and I'm not a fundamentalist. " ~Rick Warren
The Myth of the Modern American Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
I'm not a fundamentalist. " ~Rick Warren
One year (2005) he says he is not a fundamentalist.
(they are just too radical,
too extreme in their beliefs.)
and a few years later, (2011...
he is "radical" about the roots of Christianity.
Also regarding the Radicalis conference,
Liilian Kwan, reporter for the Christian Post quoted
Warren telling the world what being radical meant::
"Being a radical in the truest sense
he is "radical" about the roots of Christianity.
“You need to be radical
in your connection to God
in your connection to God
so that you are rooted"
~Rick Warren
~Rick Warren
Rick Warren said this regarding his recent Radicalis conference.
Also regarding the Radicalis conference,
Liilian Kwan, reporter for the Christian Post quoted
Warren telling the world what being radical meant::
"Being a radical in the truest sense
of the word: rooted in Christ,
rooted in his love,
rooted in the Word."
~Rick Warren
~Rick Warren
Duplicitous Rick
would claim to be
all about fundamentals,
would claim to be
all about fundamentals,
even call himself "Radical,"
but deny being anything
like a Christian "fundamentalist"
who actually believes
like a Christian "fundamentalist"
who actually believes
the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
" MR WARREN: How do you explain a book by a pastor selling now over 25 million copies? And that's in English. The book has sold over 30 million copies worldwide. And I'm not even a writer.I tell you, there's nothing in the book that's new - not a single thing in the book that's new, that's not in historic Christianity over the last 2,000 years. I just happened to say it in a simple way
ELSA WALSH, THE NEW YORKER: So are you saying doctrine won't be important or is not important if you bring together all these -
MR. WARREN: No, no. I think, though, it's what Augustine said: "In the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity." And I think that's how evangelicals and Catholics can get together. And I don't know if you know this or not, but fundamentalists and Pentecostals don't like each other, okay? They don't. But they could get together. "In the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
The Myth of the Modern Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
Evangelicals and Catholics
even in their differences,
find fundamental common ground
even in their differences,
find fundamental common ground
As for "fundamentalists".... who,
according to Rick warren,
according to Rick warren,
"do not like "Pentecostals"
note how he is contrasting groups of people
makeing certain to once
note how he is contrasting groups of people
makeing certain to once
again isolate :"fundamentalists"
as the negative people.
Note also that "Petecostals"
claim to believe those five
claim to believe those five
the fundamentals of
the Christian faith.
the Christian faith.
MR. WARREN: Well, I tell you, that's the reason I accepted this meeting, because I'm just tired of having other people represent me and represent the hundreds of thousands of churches where the pastors I've trained would nowhere, no way, relate to some of the supposed spokesmen of a previous generation.... Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. ~Rick Warren
"Legalistic?" "Narrow view?"
Seriously???
Seriously???
Does Rick Warren mean legalistic,
as in they might actually hold to a
belief in the Ten Commandments?
as in they might actually hold to a
belief in the Ten Commandments?
Is this "narrow view" concept of Christianity
mean they have the audacity to believe
the scriptural ways of
narrowness, like John 14:6?
mean they have the audacity to believe
the scriptural ways of
narrowness, like John 14:6?
While Rick faults the Five Fundamentals document,
Rick himself is in the business
of redefining and replacing
and changing Christianity...
be ready for a little slight of mind,
you see,
as Rick finds fault some obscure document
Rick himself is in the business
of redefining and replacing
and changing Christianity...
be ready for a little slight of mind,
you see,
as Rick finds fault some obscure document
you never paid much attention to before,
he would be happy to get you to ascribe
another concept of fundamentals...
he would be happy to get you to ascribe
another concept of fundamentals...
Five of them...called the Five Purposes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Bob Jones is not a mega-church?
MR. WARREN: No, no, no, no, no, no no. Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, and that group is shrinking more and more and more. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing.
MR. WILLIAMS: What's the difference between a fundamentalist and a Pentecostal?
MR. WARREN: A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today. They would - for instance, one of the hallmarks of a Pentecostal would be praying for miracles of healing and speaking in an unknown tongue and things like that. Those would be hallmarks of Pentecostalism and fundamentalists would say, "Oh no, all that stuff died at the end of the New Testament." They would not accept the miraculous today.
Rick is a bit misleading..
"Fundamental" teachings
of the Christian faith,
of the Christian faith,
like the virgin birth and
the resurrection of Jesus,
resurrection from the dead
the resurrection of Jesus,
resurrection from the dead
are not your common everyday occurrence;
these are miraculous indeed, and Christians
who believe the fundamentals of Christianity
believe those very things.
They do believe in miracles.
As Christians they have the liberty
to be like Bereans
and search the scriptures
so as not to be deceived
when dealing with
They do believe in miracles.
As Christians they have the liberty
to be like Bereans
and search the scriptures
so as not to be deceived
when dealing with
signs, wonders and
sensational appearances
of things like gold teeth
that appear in people's mouths
and then appear
to some as "miracles"
MR. WILLIAMS: So what's the difference between you and the fundamentalists?that appear in people's mouths
and then appear
to some as "miracles"
MR. WARREN: Well, I don't agree with that. I believe there are miracles today.
MR. CROMARTIE: Let me give you a quick answer to that. The difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist is an evangelical is someone who really, really, really likes Billy Graham. A fundamentalist is someone who thinks Billy Graham is a liberal.
MR. WARREN: That would be true. A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics. You know - even evangelicals. It's interesting - maybe 15-20 years ago, Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention - which is as wide - I mean you can find anything in that."
The Myth of the Modern Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
MR. WARREN: I do. Absolutely, without a doubt because the fundamental issue of Christianity is this: the purpose-driven life is built on two verses of scripture, both by Jesus. One is called the Great Commission, and the other is called the Great Commandment."
The Myth of the Modern Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
Be amazed as you
watch Rick redefining
what a "fundamental" Christian is.
He is stating that the purpose driven paradigm is
built not on fundamentals already established,
Watch how he circumvents that idea...
and tells his listeners Purpose Driven
is the fundamental issue of Christianity.
and it's not built on Jesus, but rather
built on two commandments...
Jesus gave.
THIS, is manipulation, and it is legalistic.
watch Rick redefining
what a "fundamental" Christian is.
He is stating that the purpose driven paradigm is
built not on fundamentals already established,
Watch how he circumvents that idea...
and tells his listeners Purpose Driven
is the fundamental issue of Christianity.
and it's not built on Jesus, but rather
built on two commandments...
Jesus gave.
THIS, is manipulation, and it is legalistic.
"And so I think fundamentally Christianity and Judaism both teach that it's all about love. It's all about loving God and loving your neighbor. That's why I was serious when I was saying you're my cousin; I obviously have far more in common with someone who is Jewish than I do with someone who is a secularist - far more in common because we worship the same God; it is Adonai, it is Jehovah. We worship the same God. We are cousins in the faith.
Now the ridiculous thing is this myth that all religions are not mutually exclusive. If you've studied them - anybody who has studied the world religions knows they cannot all be right because they totally contradict each other. Anybody who says they don't has never studied the world religions. They are mutually exclusive, and that's why I come back to my earlier statement that I'm going to bet my life on one of them because I cannot bet my life on all of them. And I think the stupid thing is not to make a bet." ~Rick Warren
The Myth of the Modern Megachurch, Pew Forum, Transcript, 2005
"Now the ridiculous thing is this myth that all religions are not mutually exclusive."
~Rick Warren
"I think fundamentally Christianity and Judaism both teach that it's all about love. It's all about loving God and loving your neighbor"
"Muslim fundamentalism,
Christian fundamentalism,
Jewish fundamentalism,
secular fundamentalism -
- they're all motivated by fear.
Fear of each other."
~ Rick Warren
.
Thursday, March 10, 2011
Myths of the Modern Megachurch with Rick Warren
This is an interesting transcript to read through. I think it gives a good picture of Rick's history in ministry and the things he believes and is involved in. Rick is here once more "pastor of the largest church in America," and as such he took the opportunity to address various misconceptions about mega-churches in America "today". He tells a lot about who he is and what he believes in this conversation, making this a very informative read.
"There is a verse in the Bible that says the intelligent man is always open to new ideas; in fact, he looks for them. And so when Mike invited me to come to this and I saw your names, I really jumped at the chance. I enjoy these smaller, intimate meetings. You know, when you speak to 23,000, 24,000 people every weekend, crowds don't impress you anymore."
~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"Last night, I was in Miami speaking to this huge international convention of all of the Spanish-language publishers and they gave me the city key to Miami, but really I would have more fun with you here today."
~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"As you can imagine, I get a lot of invitations to speak - I get about four or five a day - and so I have been choosing pretty carefully which ones to accept. And I came here because I only speak to influencers, and God has given you a degree of influence. "
~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"The Purpose Driven life is not just the best-selling book in American history; it's the best-selling book in about a dozen languages."~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"Saddleback is the largest church in America. We had our 25th anniversary on Easter this year. I did 12 services. We had 45,000 in attendance and I preached 12 services in a row. Two weeks later, we celebrated our anniversary and we had never had the church in one location, so we rented Angel Stadium and had 30,000 at Angel Stadium. I have 82,000 names on the church roll."~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
" I know about volunteers. We have 9,200 lay ministers who lead 200-plus different ministries all over southern California. I know these numbers are a little overwhelming, but just to give you an idea, we have 2,600 small groups that meet from Santa Monica to Escondido in 83 cities. And so the church gathers on Sunday for a big service and then meets during the week in homes. That allows us to do all kinds of enormous things. For instance, in November, during our 40 Days of Community, we decided to feed every homeless person in Orange County three meals a day for 40 days. We went out and we found out that was 42,000 people. How do you feed 42,000 people three meals a day for 40 days? Well, it takes a lot of volunteers. And we did - we collected over 2 million pounds of food and those 9,200 lay ministers pulled it off and we fed 40,000 people three meals a day."
~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"While I wasn't known like a Jerry Falwell or a Robert Schuller or some of these media personalities, every pastor in America knew who I was because I put all of my sermons on an Internet site and it gets 400,000 hits a day from pastors. And so, instead of me teaching it on the radio or TV, we put it on the Internet and we allow other pastors to take this material and use it."
~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"Well, I'm actually speaking at the University of Judaism this next month, where I've been asked to come in and teach the rabbis my preaching seminar. "~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
" All my life I planned to simply pastor this church for life and train pastors. That's all I wanted to do. And so I've spent the last 20 years training about 400,000 pastors in 162 countries. I didn't want to do anything else. And all of a sudden after the book came out, two things happened. First, it brought in a ton of money. I mean, a ton of money. Second, it brought in a lot of notoriety, which I didn't really want. And I began to say, what am I supposed to do with this affluence and what am I supposed to do with this influence? And I call it the stewardship of affluence and the stewardship of influence."~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"So when I got that information from the pastor, we immediately did two things. First, we released churches all over India, Southeast Asia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, in our network - immediately going to the coast to start cleaning up, for instance, Buddhist temples that we knew were going to be destroyed and stuff like that. And the second thing was, I had announced in our church about people giving to the tsunami, and on the basis of a one-minute announcement, our church gave a million-and-a-half dollars to the tsunami, just like that....So then we put out an email. I have an email newsletter called Rick's Toolbox that goes out every Monday to almost 147,000 pastors. And I write a little note every Monday. I sit in my pajamas, hit the button, it goes to 147,000 pastors. "You guys want to help out on the tsunami?" Boom, tons of money is coming in, and it's just all going back out.
"~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
""My book happened to be published by Zondervan, which is owned by Harper-Collins, which is owned by Newscorp, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch. So when the book hit 15 million, I called up Rupert Murdoch and I said, "What are you going to do to celebrate my book?" And he goes, "Well, what do you want to do?" I go, "I want you to throw a party and I want you to invite all your secular elite friends from Manhattan and let me talk to them." And he goes, "Okay." (Chuckles.) So he sends out a list, he invited 350 people, who's who in Manhattan to the top of the Rainbow Room, and I went up there and you know, I just started talking to them - again, standing ovation. "~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"By the way, my wife and I had dinner at a gay couple's home two weeks ago. So I'm not homophobic guy, okay? We had dinner with a gay couple because we are heavily involved in helping people infected and afflicted by AIDS and we've given millions to it. So I'm no homophobic guy. I just don't believe it's God's will."~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"There have been movements that have come along that have broken the denominational barriers in Christianity, things like the conferences we do, and even stuff like Promise Keepers that kind of went up and then went down; you know, all of a sudden you've got a million guys on the National Mall, and they're everything - they're Catholic and Pentecostal and Baptist. And the other thing that's interesting, last Saturday I spoke at a thing called the Global Day of Prayer. You've probably never even heard about it or covered it. There were only 150 million people involved in that, but it got almost no coverage, okay?"
"~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
"When Time magazine comes out and calls me, quote, "America's pastor," I can't tell you what that does in my life because it's something that I really didn't want. ..... But if that is a role that I'm going to play for one segment of our society, then I want to represent them and the things they value - humility, integrity and generosity - with intelligence and integrity. Those are the three important values to me." ~Rick Warren
Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega Church, 2005, Transcript
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