Sunday, April 11, 2010

The Saddleback Membership Covenant


1. I WILL PROTECT THE UNITY OF MY CHURCH
2. I WILL SHARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MY CHURCH
3. I WILL SERVE THE MINISTRY OF MY CHURCH
4. I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH

Can people...having heard the gospel and received Christ and having been baptized...
simply be the manner of men that God has called Christians to be?   
Does not the Holy Ghost work in us and lead us and guide us into all truth.?
Does God help us? Does his word and Holy Spirit counsel us....
train us and speak to us by the Word of God and prayer?  

When it comes to making "a covenant" with the church.... 
how is it that this repentance and baptism... 
the receiving of this truth is simply 
not enough? 

For some, like Rick Warren,
to profess faith in Christ,
it under sound biblical teaching, and subject oneself  
to come into fellowship with other believers and be a member
of the body of Christ, and this with no strings attached, 
letting "your yes be yes and your no be no" 
is not enough.  
One has to sign 
an oath too.  

The popular thing now is that members
of his "Purpose Driven" churches are being told 
that they must not only receive Jesus Christ as Lord, 
but that they must also make an additional covenant...
to the leadership of the church congregation, 
)and this is even though they have just been baptized...
and entered into the Great and Holy covenant of God,
the one that He made
with humanity 
himself...
for all  time. 

Something just doesn't seem right about this.

A writer on the internet says 
that the New Covenant is an agreement
between the Jesus Christ, 
our Lord and Savior,the Redeemer 
and His Church, the Redeemed.  
In fellowship with him and with the Father through His Holy Spirit 
we have a relationship with God, and with our fellow man,
not only those in Christ  but also those yet outside this covenant...
the stranger...
widow, 
orphan...
neighbor, 
and even those 
who would be 
our enemy.   
Surely such a covenant as this 
is much superior to a covenant 
made with human hands. 

Interesting. 

Not only that, 
but this is all is so 
despite the fact that as a Christian, 
you could, as you have been instructed by Jesus Himself, 
to simply live honestly,  
(a Matthew 5:37 concept)
and not go around taking oaths 
which you cannot keep 
or even saying what you will 
and will not do in the future.

YOo and I , 
we have no control over in the future 
and perhaps something unknown to you, 
will prevent you from keeping the oaths you make.
.. the ones you will not, cannot  keep.  

Covenants, like marriage,
may be broken by you intentionally
or unintentionally, 
sometime in the future...
but God, 
he always keeps his 
Promises...  and a PROMISE 
is what a covenant really is.

God is the faithful one, the one who always keeps his word.




The Saddleback Membership Covenant 
(An excerpt from "Church membership: Expect what the Bible expects  by Rick Warren ")

"Having received Christ as my Lord and Savior and been baptized, and being in agreement with Saddleback's statements, strategy, and structure, I now feel led by the Holy Spirit to unite with the Saddleback church family. In doing so, I commit myself to God and to the other members to do the following:
1. I WILL PROTECT THE UNITY OF MY CHURCH
...By acting in love toward other members
...By refusing to gossip
...By following the leaders
"So let us concentrate on the things which make for harmony, and on the growth of our fellowship together." Rom. 15:19 (Ph)
"Have a sincere love for your fellow believers, love one another earnestly with all your hearts." 1 Peter 1:22 (TEV)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs..." Eph. 4:29
"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be no advantage to you." Heb. 13:17
2. I WILL SHARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MY CHURCH
...By praying for its growth
...By inviting the unchurched to attend
...By warmly welcoming those who visit
"To the church ... we always thank God for you and pray for you constantly." 1 Thess. 1:2
"The Master said to the servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes, and urge the people there to come so my house will be full.'" Luke 14:23 (NCV)
"So, warmly welcome each other into the church, just as Christ has warmly welcomed you; then God will be glorified." Rom. 15:7 (LB)
3. I WILL SERVE THE MINISTRY OF MY CHURCH
...By discovering my gifts and talents
...By being equipped to serve by my pastors
...By developing a servant's heart
"Serve one another with the particular gifts God has given each of you..." 1 Peter 4:10(Ph)
"God gave...some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God's people for works of ministry, so that the body of Christ may be built up..." Eph. 4:11-12
"Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Jesus Christ...who took on the very nature of a servant..." Phil. 2:3-4,7
4. I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH
...By attending faithfully
...By living a godly life
...By giving regularly
"Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...but let us encourage one another." Heb. 10:25
"But whatever happens, make sure that your everyday life is worthy of the gospel of Christ." Phil. 1:27 (Ph)
"Each one of you, on the first day of each week, should set aside a specific sum of money in proportion to what you have earned and use it for the offering." 1 Cor. 16:2
"A tenth of all your produce is the Lord's, and it is holy." Lev. 27:30

Note the "I WILL's"

  Satan had a lot of "I WILL's"  too.
Isaish 14: 13:
"I will ascend to heaven;  
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God; 
I will sit enthroned
on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights
of the sacred mountain."

Who's "will" be done?

Will the person making known their own will.
signing this covenant contract,
be doing their own will, or God's?
AND
Why does one have to sign a written contract?
Will they be anathema if they
somehow fail in someone's opinion...
to uphold and do their part sucessfully?

Will they be needing a lawyer
when they intentionally
or unintentionally
break the contact?
This is simply baffling. 

The covenant reads:
 "I WILL PROTECT THE UNITY OF MY CHURCH..". 

...By refusing to gossip
...By following the leaders

Does this mean you cannot speak up 
about unbiblical teaching from the pulpit?  
How much will one follow the leadership 
 and "protect unity" of their church, 
even if they are WRONG... 
Will they be silent, 
just to keep this 
unity? 
" I WILL SHARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MY CHURCH"
....By praying for its growth
...By inviting the unchurched to attend
...By warmly welcoming those who visit

Is this so that people can feel 
 like they are a part of something BIG?

Does this mean that if the leadership 
takes out a huge loan 
and goes bankrupt you 
become financially 
responsible?
Does this mean that you will spend all
your spare time and your energy.
at the church doing things that need to get done 
instead of spending time with your family 
and the people you need to love?

"I WILL SERVE THE MINISTRY OF MY CHURCH"
...By discovering my gifts and talents
...By being equipped to serve by my pastors
...By developing a servant's heart
 
You are promising to serve...
Does this make your service, 
to you local church,
"mandatory"?

You are agreeing to serve
and to develop a 
"servant's heart." 
to the undertakings 
of your church 
leaders
under OATH?

How interesting that our country's current leaders
are also interested in mandatory "service."


"I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH."
...By attending faithfully
...By living a godly life
...By giving regularly

This could be for any church.
of any doctrinal persuation,
you do not have to consider
Christian doctrine from the Bible,
just the "testimony "
of your particular local church.

In the case of a
Purpose Driven Church,
you are agreeing to support
the five purposes
that need to be balanced
in a "healthy" church.

The signer is agreeing
not to challenge the teachings,
and because 
this section deals with moneyyou are also agreeing
to financially support the church
by commiting to give "at least a tenth of their income"
to support the "testimony of the church."
rather than giving an offering  from their heart,
and at their own discretion.
Besides that, it is rather legalistic .
It is also convenient too, for "leaders"
to have a data base about every member, 
know how much money they make 
and to have an expected
organizational income 
based upon not only 
numbers in attendance and statistics... 
but also upon a legal contract of this nature, 
and this rather than simply 
knowing and trusting 
God for his provision 
and the people in their congregation.


 If one covenants like this,
must they always continue

to keep such promises?

Matthew 5: 33-37
Jesus speaking; "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.  Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."


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Read the RICK WARREN POEM  Click Here

25 comments:

  1. Do you really think your attacks on Rick Warren are something God wants you to do?

    Don't you think your time (quite a lot of time it would appear) would be better used for the Kingdom of God by serving the poor or sharing your faith with others?

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    1. Oh, let me answer the first question here, "YES". The comment above perceives this blog as some kind of attack. I got four verses from the New Testament with the direct command, "Be not deceived": 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7 and particularly, Luke 21:8. Luke 21:8 says, "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.". It says, "... go ye not therefore after them.". It would seem to include not signing a contract with them either.

      Don't even worry about thinking you have attacked Rick Warren with this blog article. He is well fortified. There are procedures in place to handle resisters. (See: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm ).

      And now the 2nd question does NOT deserve a response. It is nothing else but a narcissistic guilt trip and do not fall for that abuse. 2 Timothy 3:2 says, "For men shall be lovers of their own selves ...". (KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK AND SOUND LIKE). 2 Timothy 3:5 says,"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY. ".

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  2. Thank you for your comment, "Anonymous." Thanks for taking time to read some of my longwindedness. I hope it serves to remind you of Jesus and what he said and taught.

    I have to say I do not think of writing about Rick Warren's teachings, recording his quotes for people to consider in light of what the gospel says, as an "attack" on Rick, rather an expose' of his stealth "attack" on you whom he would put under the law with a membership covenant and get you to follow "your will" (with all the wills he gets you to chant) instead of subjecting yourself to the will of God in simple faith. Truth is that Rick Warren has a lot to say, and make no mistake, they are intentionally said the way they are said, on purpose. This is the "purpose driven" pastor after all.

    I am sharing my faith.... and hopefully encouraging you to look to God instead of Rick if that is what you are doing. God is the faithful one, the one who always keeps his word, and Rick just says some strange things and leaves things out too. But as a wise man once said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

    God is the faithful one, the one who always keeps his word.

    Have a nice evening.

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  3. I have read the Purpose Driven Church back to back, many of my other church mates have read Rick's books too and we were so blessed by the wisdom that God gave through his books.

    I stumble upon your blog which I found to be rather sad (and I have read many of your articles commenting on Rick's writing too before writing this comment). Although you have clearly mentioned on your response to Anonymous that you are "sharing your faith", but I recon the entire blog are filled with your disagreements towards Rick's 'design' and reasoning and as much as possible highlighting that he's teaching is some what misleading and is not biblical. I found that your comments do not glorify the work of God as a whole but instead attracts division (and leads to destruction) among the body of Christ as a whole. To my understanding from the bible that I read back to back, sharing our faith has to in anyway edifies our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    I am not Rick's church member, in fact we do not live in the same country. I do not agree entirely in what he is teaching, but in many ways I have learned through the wisdom that God gave through him. I don't know what your theological background is, but I guess you should have done some academic studies in Theology of some sort to be able to write a lot of strong comments.

    Rick's intention of the book is to enrich people's understanding in managing the church flocks. As you might know that a Church is a difficult community of people to manage. A lot of effort and skills are required to carefully manage it well. He did not intend to be the 'god' among his people, but instead he is trying to be a good steward of God in taking care of the flocks that God trusted to him as another good servant of God. As the leader of the flocks, he is in many ways responsible to ensure the growth of the flocks and whether or not the congregation can witness the love of God depends on his skills and capabilities.

    Your way of making comments would lead to making comments such as:
    If God is a loving God, why is there poverty in the world? If God knows everything, didn't He know that human will sin? If God knows that human will sin, then why did He put the tree of knowledge in Eden? Or if He know all those, that is He playing dumb until now? etc.

    What I'm pointing out here is that there are always ways for you to make bad comments about anything, including towards your own faith, other people's faith and even towards our God. But I do not think our freedom, skills and knowledge are meant to do those things. Instead it should edify others to be stronger in their faith in many ways.

    Thank You

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    1. Thank you for your comment. You say that you do not agree entirely with what Rick is teaching. Obviously, neither do I. But not agreeing with Rick really is not just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing or personal preference only.... rather it is a matter of noticing that Rick does not agree with the Bible. Is this the reason you do not agree with Rick when you find that you do not agree? It is for me.

      When it comes to Jesus... Rick has said: “You’ve heard me say many times that the greatest thing you can do with your life is tell somebody about Jesus … if you help somebody secure their eternal destiny, that they spend the rest of their life in Heaven not Hell …your life counts, your life matters because nothing matters more than helping get a person and their eternal destiny settled. They will be forever eternally grateful….And I’ve always said that that was the greatest thing you can do with your life.... I was wrong.”

      He was wrong?

      Also, did you know there is one thing greater you can do than share Jesus Christ with somebody? (According to Rick there is.)
      (Here this Sunday Sermon at Saddleback Church, 11/2003, I think it was the third weekend. You can listen here: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/RWAnnouncesPeace.wma) (listen about the 21 minute mark and note his confusing tones and inflections of his voice.)

      Rick Warren is misguided and misleading others. I am more than speculating, I am convinced. I am also convinced that to be silent about the discrepancies between what Rick says and the Bible teaches us would be to condone what Rick is saying in the name of Jesus.

      Silence condones evil of all kinds... and Rick says some really strange things that simply needs to be discussed and even exposed for what they are in light of the truth of scripture.

      Being forgiven of sin in Christ, being saved to be in eternity with God instead of being lost in darkness under the wrath of God is a pretty big deal if you ask me. Telling another person of the amazing love and grace of God, in having salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, (and this contrary to what Rick has said and says he believes,) is in my humble opinion, actually greater than any other thing you will ever do, if you do it.

      Thanks for reading and commenting on this blog.
      Lisa



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  4. Lisa Thanks so much. Your comments have been very helpful.I just recently signed a church covenant, and am now sorry I did. You are spot on , so keep up Gods work.

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  5. Thank you for your comments. The church I have attended for 46 years was recently overtaken by a group from our Faulkner County SBC Association. They have been following Rick Warren's teaching and now they are requiring each churchperson that has stayed with them to sign an elder lead church covenant, someone read it to me tonight and it mentioned the following words so many times it is scary what they are doing to the ones who have stayed, most of them are elder and think they are doing the right thing. The words that frightened me were "submit, obey, authority and etc. They are not refering to GOD but themselves.

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    1. My people perish for lack of knowledge. These men want to be idolized and be the "lord" of the sheep. The church I was attending adopted that Saddleback contract, and I refused to sign it. Then the Pastor changed the church constitution so that he makes all the decisions, and you know that is a dictatorship. We are not to pledge loyalty to them, but we are to abide in Christ and in His Word.

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  6. I am confused by all the negativity of someone taking an oath. I attend Saddlback and have been shown nothing but positivity and love. I am reading the Bible daily and am on the path to becoming a better person. I know the Lord Jesus Christ more each day and think you are making something where there is not. This covers the "gossip" portion of the oath.

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  7. Hello Anonymous,

    This verse in the book of James comes to mind regarding oaths.. I didn;t make it up..... James wrote it down for you and I. I reads something like,
    .James 5:12
    "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." I just think it is weird, in light of such a verse in scripture... to "insist that people make a covenant like this.

    The "problem" with taking an oath is thinking that you would be able to keep an oath perfectly. If you are a man or woman of integrity... one who reverences God and attempts to do the right thing and please God.... then, as the word says, it is better to simply let your yes be yes... and no be no, rather than make promises you may not be able to keep.

    Always remember God's love for you. Doesn't matter what other people think... or how they make you feel at any particular phase of your Christian walk...God loves you .And, if for any reason at any time, you are not perfect in every way.... or you are not the person you think God expects you to be remember we have an advocate with the father named Jesus Christ..... who interceedes on our behalf. and when we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us.

    Keep reading your bible

    Peace.

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  8. so we come against membership covenants but will easily sign a contract for a Job because we need the money. hmmm

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  9. More importantly, do we create membership "covenants" for people to be bound to even though God never required anything but let your yes be yes.... and your no be no?

    See: Matthew 5:37
    Jesus speaking: "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

    I'd say that membership "covenants" are more than this.

    Work demands such a thing, (written, legally binding signed "contract" ) to keep you both honest in court, should you find yourself there. You could work for someone under an agreement.... letting your yes be yes and no be no quite easily....without signing a "contract."

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  10. I quess you have never had any pastoral experience. Probably you are the thorn in Pastor Ricks flesh. I guess you consider it your life's calling which shows in your obsession with man and his ministry. Even if the man was in error, like a counterfeit dollar you do not spend time studying it. But you train people to familiarize themself with the genuine. So please spend your time share the truth of God's word and not just trying to bring down another.

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  11. I am not a pastor. Are you? I didn;t knonw that one had to be a pastor to know and understand what the scripture teaches. I read in the Bible that all Christians under sound bible teaching would understand, or at least be able to open their Bibles and see if what someone claiming to be a pastor was saying was true or not. also, if anyone lacked wisdom on such things, they could ask God and he would answer them about it. I don't believe that a pastor's job is to replace the Bible with his own words... his words should come from the Bible.

    Is Rick in error?
    I simply say, let God be true! (and every man a liar) Romans 3:4..

    I have no doubt that this "membership covenant" is legalism. It takes a person who is a Christian and puts them directly back under law. This, is witchcraft. I am surprised that circumcision is not listed as part of this covenant too. (it would likely be too obvious.)

    I read in Galatians that the righteous live by faith. There is such a thing as living in Christian fellowship by the spirit of God.... and this covenant, as mmuch of what Rick Warren does to people is simply witchcraft. (Galatians 3)

    "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3, ESV)"

    "For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but fGod gave it to Abraham by a promise." (Gal 3:18)


    "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, .....through faith."

    What happens when someone in your congregation fails to keep all these "I wills" of the "covenant?'

    Are they disfellowshipped? What is the punishment for the breaking of this covenant? I suggest anyone interested in signing one of these realize that it's a rather new thing to be doing in Christian communities, ordinarily we love, (give, hold to unity of faith, love our "pastor," ( not leader,) serve and refuse to gossip) because Christ first loves us.... not because we sign a contract stating we will do that.
    I recommend reading this: http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/mempolicyqa.htm

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  12. I guess marriage is out, too? Covenant and vows would also eliminate the modern institution we call marriage. No promises at all. Come to think of it, subdivisions that have covenants would be off limits and home mortgages would also be taboo since they are binding contracts that require you to sign your name as a promise to pay back what you owe.

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  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. Not all "contracts" are bad. Legally, they are important and they are binding. Fortunately, our covenant, New Covenant with God in Christ is not only legal and even binding, but based upon Jesus, not ourselves or our ability to keep it..

    This church membership "covenant" promoted by Rick is different from God's and it has human thumbprints all over it. It is much better to simply let you yes be yes and your no be no.... as the scriptures tell us, that to make these kinds of oaths and contracts.

    Recommended reading:
    http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/shepherding.htm
    http://www.tithingdebate.com/

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    1. I guess lisa is not a christian because you are anti church. Read eph. 4:11-12. Read it and understand it.

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    2. There are 2 saddleback churches...one called saddleback church with 22,000 members and an saddleback church of Christ 4 miles away with 45 members.. remember broad is the way and many go in... Straight is the gate narrow is the path and few are they that find it...

      Biblical verses say that the churches of Christ romane 16:16 must be in city's...with elders and deacons with children not accused of riot or unruly.

      Is saddleback an city...no.

      Also critical text Bible's deny that God came in the fleas..1 timothy 3'16. This is the spirts of the anti Christ...I recommed using received text Bible's and making sure the accuract of the word of God I live by.. in Jesus Christ is come in the flesh amen

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  15. You remind me of a Pharisee.....

    Matthew 23:13-16
    13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

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  16. A Pharisee is one distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity by the keeping of such laws. However righteous in themselves, they miss the fact that they are sinners, dismiss needing the righteousness imparted to us because of Jesus.

    Convincing people they MUST sign and MUST keep this "Membership Covenant" (and all it declares) in order to be a member of good standing in a church..(.a.k.a.be pleasing to God) is Pharisaical, if you ask me. Why are people pledging themselves to the leadership of the church? Are we not all one? Is one man above another? (No.)

    This covenant thing is basically a return to LAW and a dismissal of the gospel of grace, that is, if per chance you have already received the grace of God in Christ. What happens when someone does not do all the things they promise to the expectations of these other men? Do they loose their salvation?

    I think it i important to remember that membership covenants are oaths.... and oaths can be binding. Jesus, on the other hand, said to simply let your yes be yes and your no be no. I am all for that, aren't you?

    Membership covenants are man made. They also help those who think of themselves as "leaders" control the people and they certainly, especially with the tithing clause, help ensure the exacting of funds, rather than the contributions, from members of the congregation. That... if you ask me, is Pharisee-ism..

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    1. Hebrews 8:6
      But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

      I've sent notification ending my membership covenant with the SADDLEBACK CHURCH.

      anyone see how Mr. warren started SADDLEBACK CHURCH?

      1. What do you think is the greatest need in this area?
      2. Are you actively attending any church?
      3. Why do you think most people don’t attend church?
      4. If you were to look for a church to attend, what kind of things would you look for?
      5. What could I do for you?

      what jesus asked us to do...

      King James Bible
      And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

      what is the gospel?
      The Bible tells us what the gospel is in 1 Cor. 15:1-4,

      "Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

      what is the penalty for preaching another gospel?

      King James Bible
      But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

      when knocking on doors ask persons have they heard the gospel of jesus christ and explain what the gospel is and ask to study the bible with them.

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  17. This is an extremely interesting debate, and I applaud Lisa for standing her ground. Perhaps the thing to do is to approach this subject not by slinging scriptures at each other but by allowing the Holy Spirit to be our teacher/referee in the debate. Perhaps we will all then move towards the center where the truth ultimately lies.
    Just a thought.

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  18. I just attended a Church Membership Class where we were requested to sign a Church Member Commitment. I've felt uneasy throughout the entire process. For me, to make a promise to fulfill my commitment to God, to another individual (human or church) feels like I'm disrespecting my original commitment of faith to God.

    I came across this blog post and the subsequent debate through research to try to understand my discomfort. I greatly appreciate both sides of the debate presented here. I do believe I am leaning toward letting my "Yes be yes and my no be no."

    I will continue to pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me in this decision.

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  19. Thank you Lisa.

    By disagreeing with the church leaders (say because they got it wrong), members would be breaching the covenant, and the leadership could in theory say they have hence forfeited their membership rights.

    This is not Biblical. Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul are just a few examples who challenged their leaders as they saw wrongs. Paul was the only one who wasn't persecuted as a result (Peter listened to Paul, thankfully). Usually one verse from Hebrews to support its call for obedience to church leaders is not taking the bigger picture in account.

    Also the first paragraph says "nd being in agreement with Saddleback's statements, strategy, and structure, I now feel..." - why do we need to agree with the church's strategy and structure before joining? Surely it is the values that we need to agree with.

    I come from a country where the political leaders use the constitution and party membership to control thoughts and punish oppositions. This covenant could equally be used to purge those who disagree. Stand in line or leave / be disciplined.

    I am not saying all churches who have adopted this covenant is one that has controlling leaders, but when a church has controlling leaders, this covenant is a dangerous tool.

    There needs to be good accountability and support for the leaders and lay members alike. There needs to be mutual servant-hearted attitude and culture. There needs to be better transparency and governance within churches to encourage trust and effectiveness in building God's kingdom on earth.

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