Come and Die?

Before reading any further  let's just remember that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  That is right.  He died that we might have life, even though we were ungodly.  It is Jesus Christ who laid down his life as a ransom for you and I who believe Him.   (Romans 5:8; Mark 10:45; 1 Corinthians 15:3)

Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church and author of The Purpose Driven Life, talked in an interview originally posted at churchrelevence.com, where he talked about how Jesus calls us to "come and die."  In another interview, he talked about this again and also about the Willow Creek Church  "Reveal Study."  In both interviews, he emphasized the importance of being a church that has "both a come and see and a come an die approach to life with Jesus" The following quotes of Mr. Warren, come from these videos.


"...the Purpose Driven Paradigm. I don't care what you call it, it's the Jesus model of discipleship."  -Rick Warren  


Rick insists...that his "purpose driven" way is the way Jesus did things. Accordingly, to do otherwise is not to be using Jesus. model.  If you and your church are not using it... you are not doing church or discipleship of your members, the proper, healthy, "Jesus" way. 

"We move people from "come and see" to" come and die." -Rick Warren

The insinuation he makes is that, YOU don't- 

...but he and Saddleback do.

Don't you want to be like him and do it right? 

 (The Jesus modeled way.)

"The very first words of Jesus that He says to His disciples are “Come and see.” Now that’s the entry point for faith.   What is the commitment level of “Come and see?” Nothing.  Just show up.  Sit in the back.   Don’t sing anything, say anything, sacrifice anything.  Just show up.  But Jesus never left them there.  And from “Come and see,” He took them through consistent steps." -Rick Warren

Rick is not being true to the text where 
Jesus says, "Come and see." 
Besides, listening to Rick one would think
that a simple act of faith was not ever enough for following Jesus.
According to Rick, Jesus had all kinds of 
tricks up his sleeve..."hoops" to put those disciples through
so they could prove their abilities and 
commitment to him before they 
could "really" be His disciples.

But what does the "come and see" text say?
(John 1:39-ish)
Look at the text.
Apparently, it was John the Baptist who pointed out 
Jesus to those two disciples when he said,  

"Behold, the Lamb of God!" 

And look!  Those same two who Jesus 
spoke those words "Come and see" to 

were actually already "following" him, walking with him.
Jesus's invitation to "come and see"  
was for them to continue with him.

They were not just "looky-loos."who happened to just 
show up.

 Seems,  "the entry point for faith"

for these two, was  already 
made by the discipleship of one named John...
 who pointed them to Jesus, even
 told them about the Messiah, 
 the "Lamb of God who takes 

away the sin of the world."

They were already following (literally) Jesus
when he turned and asked them a question and then 
invited them to "come and see."

Jesus made no requirement of them, he simply said,  "Come, and see."
Not much proof of any real committeemen there...
(Rick  agrees.)

"What is the commitment level of come and see? Nothing. Just show up.  Sit in the back, don't sing anything, don’t say anything, sacrifice anything- Jesus never left them there. From come and see he took them through consistent steps and all through the 3 1/2 years of ministry, he is turning up the heat and as they begin to follow him, he starts saying, now you’re my disciple if… and he re-defines the commitment. You’re my disciple if… you love one another. Right before the cross, he turns around to them and he says if you want to follow me, you’ve got to take up your cross deny yourself, and follow me. Now would you agree that there is a huge difference in commitment between come and see and come and die."  -Rick Warren

Yes, there is Rick's "Jesus"...always changing things up on

those disciples, making things harder and harder... making that fire 

hotter and hotter... "turning up the heat"

so they can prove to Jesus what level of commitment they really have.

Is this the Jesus you know?

Does Jesus have a long list of steps you have to accomplish,

a list of all kinds of thing YOU HAVE TO DO...

classes to complete.... 101, 201, 301, 401

40 days of Community, Peace, Love...

covenants to sign and live out unfailingly,

commitments to church missions

and leadership, (your new "family")

cell group meetings and service projects,

coaching  too? 

"Spiritual maturity" according 
to Rick, is not to be found anywhere...

in any way shape or form, without the help 

of Saddleback (Rick)  who has, under his direction,
 conveniently come up with 

everything you and your church now needs, 

and they do more, know more,

 than all the rest

of church throughout 
history every had.

This man talks bad about all those "other :
churches , almost all the time!

Doe she have the wool pulled 
over your eyes yet?

" ... “Come and see” churches bring them in the front door and win a lot of people to Christ, but they don’t deepen them to deeper levels of maturity. The “Come and die” church doesn't reach anybody for Christ, and they've got their frozen chosen that they keep taking deeper and deeper and deeper. But those people have koinitis. They’re so close no one else can break into it.  What a church has to do is see that “Come and see” and “Come and die” is the whole spectrum. And how do you get people from “Come and see” to “Come and die?” There are classes. There are covenants. There are commitments. There are cells. There’s coaching."  -Rick Warren

The cross, the gospel... 
what is it for?

Is Rick convincing to you?
Think again.

This word, "koinitis" isn't even a real word,
Rick, (AND OTHERS who use this word 
specifically to "dis" other churches 
besides their own), simply made that up!

It's a word play on "kiononia," 
the Greek word for Christian 
fellowship between people.

Rick is partially right... 

maturity is important.  

Death to our bent ways, our will, our "self" must take place...
but this is not without an exchange 
for new and eternal life.
Rick doesn't mention this.
Why?

"Come and die?"

Something is not quite right.

Did Jesus come to give you an invitation to  die?
(Frankly, you could do that quite easily without Jesus.)

But wait... there's more.

Rick says that today we mistakenly think 
of the cross as a symbol of hope...

 "Jesus said, 'You've got to deny yourself take up your cross, and follow me.'  We don't understand the implications of that, because today, the cross is a symbol of hope. we wear it-- we wear it around our necks like it is a pretty symbol, but to wear a cross in those days would be the equivalent of wearing an electric chair around your neck today.  The cross was not a symbol of hope, it's a symbol of torture; and what he is saying is, come and die."

Rick Warren being interviewed, here.

 "Come and die?"

Does Rick infer here, that Christians are wrong about the cross and what it represents?

But we do understand...the gospel.
Which is exactly WHY the cross and what it stands for IS a symbol of hope.
It is our hope because of what Jesus said and who he was and what he did.
He died to save us from sin.. and raised from death proving he is God.
He gives the gift of eternal life...
even though we DIE.

A person will die in their sin and never see eternal life without Him.

                      "Come and die?"

And... where is that verse?

Can you find it?

You see,  Jesus said a lot of things... like, 

"If any man will come 

after me, let him deny himself, 

and take up his cross daily, 

and follow me.

 ^and

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: 

but whosoever will lose his life for my sake,

 the same shall save it.

 and

"Come unto me, all ye that labour 

and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." 

but, "Come and die?"

It's not to be found.

 That is Rick talking, not Jesus; 
He is just making that up...
or perhaps he is quoting a man 
named Dietrich Bonhoeffer 
who wrote in his book, The Cost of Discipleship,

"When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die." 
but it is not really the words of Jesus.

(John 10:27)

Jesus gave his life as a ransom.
Jesus voluntarily laid down his sinless life,

and died...at the hands of sinful men,
and this in order to rise from death
and save those who  would be saved.

The bible actually teaches that without believing
God... without faith in Jesus Christ
 you will die... in your sin, but through Jesus
you can have the gift of God...
faith in God and eternal life through
what Jesus Christ has done.

"Come and die?"

Is that some new bible version?  
Why does Rick say that Jesus said to "Come and Die"?
Why does he not offer others  "Life" in Jesus Christ?

Should not a Christian pastor even KNOW that 
 Jesus bids us to come unto him 

that we might have life,
 ...eternal life.

In  following Jesus, 
we learn of him, get to know him, 
hear about and believe what he said and did.
Whe know who he is and what he did for us,
and then we can rest completely in him,
knowing that even when we die
we will be in Him
with Him and have eternal life
through Him,
and THIS  for
 the glory of God.

Matthew 11:28-29

Come unto me, all ye that labour 

and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 John Chapter 3: 14-16

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, 

even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world,

 that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth 

in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God 

is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 2:25

And this is the promise that he hath promised us,

 even eternal life.

1 John 5:11

And this is the record, that God hath given

 to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

and...

Is it your death (or His death... and resurrection)

that Jesus calls you to?

2 Corinthians 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Make no mistake: Jesus gives the gift of eternal life.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal,

 and to kill, and to destroy:

 I am come that they might have life,

 and that they might have it more abundantly.

Small Talk

Small churches,  they are a problem!  But never fear, Rick is here to whet your appetite for growth.  He will almost singlehandedly, with help from a few friends, teach you how to systematically turn your church, not only from a small one into a large one, but from the traditional old fashinged kind, into the church of the 21st century!  His hope is to make every church "healthy" as opposed to "unhealthy".... and branded as "Purpose-Driven!" TM (His)


"Before we get into how to break through the 200­-300 attendance barrier I want to give you eight characteristics of small churches. Social scientists call churches that are 60­-80 people and below primary groups. There are some definite characteristics of primary groups that you need to be aware of if you're pastoring a small church and what those things are and how you overcome them."-Rick Warren

HOW TO BREAK THROUGH THE 200 ­ 300 ATTENDANCE BARRIER  by Rick Warren

Some "problems" with a small church: (according to Rick Warren)
The following quotes are from : HOW TO BREAK THROUGH THE 200 ­-300 ATTENDANCE BARRIER  by Rick Warren

"PROBLEM!"- "Small churches (churches that have below 80 people in attendance) have a strong sense of belonging." 

And yet Rick says:

"A church family identifies you as a genuine believer. 

I can't claim to be following Christ

 if I'm not committed to any specific group

 of disciples. Jesus said, 'Your love 

for one another will prove to the world that

 you are my disciples.' (John 13:35 NLT)" 

(-Rick Warren, Daily Hope with Rick Warren, Purpose Driven.com,  3.10.2010)

"PROBLEM!"- "It's very rare for someone to stand up and say, "I'm having a problem with such and such temptation" or "We're having marriage problems". You just don't talk about those kinds of things in a small church."

"Only in a small, close-knit group can one experience real fellowship,"

(-Rick Warren Purpose Driven Life, Chapter 18, , Experiencing Life Together (synopsis)

“When it comes to fellowship, size matters: Smaller is better. 

You can worship with a crowd, but you can’t fellowship with one.”  PDL pg. 138   

(-Rick Warren Purpose Driven Life, Chapter 18, , Experiencing Life Together (synopsis)

"PROBLEM!"- "Intimacy is not a key value in a small church. You know each other but you keep an arm's distance. You don't really get intimate"

Big Think Question: How do you maintain a sense of intimacy with your parishioners?

Rick Warren: "Whenever you’re talking to an audience and you start to lose them, just start telling a story"

"PROBLEM!"- "They (small churches) are late adapters when it comes to consumer things. "

Consumer things?

Is Rick suggesting consumerism is positive and 

conservation or conservatism is not?

Should one be like a "Berean" or 

just jump on anything

NEW that happens to appear to 

 glitter like gold?

"PROBLEM!"- "When you are in a church of 60, 70, 80 people you don't need a cause, a purpose, a reason for people to come, ­­ we exist for us.  I'm coming ­­ I'm here. You're coming ­­ you're here. We exist for us."

And yet Rick says:

"40 Days of Community will help 

move your congregation toward spiritual maturity 

and a meaningful life on earth, revealing how God

 uses other people for your good and growth." 

       Saddleback Resources.com

"PROBLEM!"- "Their identity comes from a building not from the people. In a small church where there is facility based identity there is a strong sense of ownership over the buildings and the rooms in those buildings."

And yet Rick says:

In regard to the opening of The Peace Center, 

"This is one building that says we love the community," 

Warren said. "It's a one-stop shop for the community."

Warrren's Peace Center Open's Today at Saddleback, by Erika I Ritchie OCRegister Dec. 13, 2011

Video of Saddleback Church BUILDINGS that he and others

do not have a sense of ownership over or get an identity from, here. 

"PROBLEM!"- "It is almost impossible to kill a small church...... That's why there's so many small churches because they are incredibly strong and resilient. They just can't be blown away."

And yet Rick says:

“There’s only one thing that lasts forever and 

keeps standing in a community, and that’s the Church.” 

This could be the Church’s finest hour,  By Rick Warren, Sept 5, 2005   

"PROBLEM!"- "They are resistant to change."

(Those pesky little churches!)  

and people are so resistant to CHANGE that you have to get rid of resisters

 before real change can happen, says Rick:

"I'm saying some people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander

 around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them

 go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it’s true. 

There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, 

but who will never, ever change."

What To Do When Your Church Hits a Plateau by Rick Warren June 14, 2006,  Christian Post 

"When a human body is out of balance we call that disease.... 

Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs....

 Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. 

The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting

 diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur." -Rick Warren

Purpose Driven Church, by Rick Warren,, pg 16 

"Be willing to let people leave the church. And I told you earlier the fact 

that people are gonna leave the church no matter what you do.

 But when you define the vision, you're choosing who leaves.

 You say, "But Rick, yes, they're the pillars of the church." 

Now, you know what pillars are. Pillars are people who hold things up ...

 And in your church, you may have to have some blessed subtractions 

before you have any real additions." - Rick Warren

"Building a Purpose-Driven Church" seminar at Saddleback Church, January, 1998. 

"One thing that I learned from Peter Drucker is a 

concept that he got from Joseph Schumpeter. He talked 

about systematic abandonment. Systematic abandonment means 

you intentionally stop stuff in order to start something new. "

Rick Warren

Three Purposes of Christmas, by Rick Warren, Christianity Today Interview, christianitytoday.com, 12-22-2006

Galatians 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed 

to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me,

 they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; 

that we should go unto the heathen, 

and they unto the circumcision.

 "It is almost impossible 

            to kill a small church." - Rick Warren

: HOW TO BREAK THROUGH THE 200 ­-300 ATTENDANCE BARRIER  by Rick Warren

Matthew 16:17

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou,

 Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,

 but my Father which is in heaven.  And I say also unto thee, 

That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Put Another Nickel In... In the Nicol-odian..

....Music, Music, Music.... 
that is, 
Music.... according to Rick:

“A song can often touch people in ways a sermon can’t. Music can bypass intellectual barriers and take the message straight to the heart.  It’s a potent tool for evangelism. In Psalm 40:3 (NCV) David says, ‘He put a NEW song in my mouth ... Many people will see this and worship him. Then they will trust the Lord.’ Notice the clear connection between music and evangelism. ... Music is the primary communicator of values to the younger generation.  If we don't use contemporary music to spread godly values, Satan will have an unchallenged access to an entire generation. Music is a force that cannot be ignored.”  ~Rick Warren 

Some Rules for Selecting Music by Rick Warren Church Leaders Gazette, February 14, 2010

Notice the title of the article this quote came from.  
"Some Rules For Selecting Music."

Rules?

Why is Rick writing "rules" for churches to follow?

You have to wonder....

Church... did you need some NEW RULES to follow?

Man's rules at that?  

And... those 'intellectual barriers"

Why "bypass" them with endorphins created by music
 rather than use human reason engaged by words?
(Isaiah 1:18?)

And regarding Rick's use of Psalm 40:3- why did he leave out part
 of THAT verse that tells what the NEW song
 of David is directed towards?

"even praise unto our God."

Strange.

"Sadly, in most churches they are still singing the same old songs. "~ Rick Warren 

Some Rules for Selecting Music by Rick Warren Church Leaders Gazette, February 14, 2010

Perhaps they are ("sadly?") still telling

 the "old, old" story too?

"The style of music you choose to use in your services will be one of the most critical (and controversial!) decisions you make in the life of your church. It may be the most influential factor in determining who your church reaches for Christ and whether or not your church grows. You must match your music to the kind of people God wants your church to reach."  ~Rick Warren 

"Match the Music to the People You Want to Reach" by Rick Warren Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox # 190, January 19, 2005,

"The music you use “positions” your church in your community. It defines who you are. Once you have decided on the style of music you’re going to use in worship, you have set the direction of your church in far more ways than you realize. It will determine the kind of people you attract, the kind of people you keep, and the kind of people you lose."         ~Rick Warren 

"Match the Music to the People You Want to Reach" by Rick Warren Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox # 190, January 19, 2005,

Is this using music as if it were some kind of idol?
Is our preference something we must 
have in order to "worship"
God the way we like best?


If music "defines us," as a church 

or defines our "position" in community, 
then what about Jesus Christ?  
Where is he is this all important concept
of music "defining" who we are?


John 3:30

.... and WHO is being defined?